1:47). It makes the one who sins unable to dwell in the presence of Heavenly Father, for “no unclean thing can dwell with God” (1 Nephi 10:21). What about the above questions for Angels, Good or Fallen Angels + can Angels sin in heaven. I believe there is a place you can go—right after you sin—where you will receive the very tools you need to receive forgiveness from that sin and power to walk in victory over that sin. But wait a minute. He is a Holy and Divine Lord. It is a great reassurance that He can and will be with us in the places of our greatest wounding and pain. The problem is that we cannot be in the presence of God. Death will be swallowed up by eternal resurrection life. 21). June 26, 2012 by Mark. One of the points of the 'gospel' message that I've often heard (and have memorized and shared with others in the past) is that God is Holy and that means he can not be in the presence of sin. But the good news is that even as we draw far away from God, He waits for us to return and even invites us to come back to Him. This sin is the root of all our many social ills. Rather, it says that Jesus became a curse for us when He hung on the “tree” (Galatians 3:13, referring to Deuteronomy 21:22-23), and losing the presence of the Father was part of the curse that He bore. Since God & Jesus couldn’t commit spiritual suicide, God’s turning away was the closest thing to it. The mortal will put on immortality. The problem is that this place has an enemy. Lots of verses tell us he is with us in times of danger and around evil forces Beating down anyone is an evil in itself. God Can Be in the Presence of Sin Which brings us back to the specific question that was sent in. Habakkuk 1:13 says that God is too pure to look on evil. Quietness Hearing God's Voice Concealment, Of Sin Gardens Suffering, Emotional Aspects Of Hiding From God God, Presence Of God, Human Descriptions Of Unity, God's Goal Of They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. I’ve understood Jesus being forshaken as a temporary state, part of the penalty he is taking on to cleanse us. First of all, deliverance from sin through Jesus Christ is not deliverance from the POSSIBILITY of sin. “God heard their groaning and he remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac and with Jacob” (Ex. If God cannot be in the presence of sinners, then there can be no judgment of sinners. The problem isn't that God can't be in the presence of sin. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches that God is opposed to sin and evil, that he is holy and righteous. The main reason you are asking this question is because you are struggling with the idea that the trinity is real. Why/Why Not/What are the Consequences? Sin cannot exist in heaven, as it would therefore cease to be heaven. Christians often say that God cannot allow any sin in his presence. I ask because, on one hand, God desires fellowship with children, but on the other hand God cannot be in the presence of sin. Oh goodness, that question of evil has sent me on my face so many times, in tears, and, Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to share on Pinterest (Opens in new window), Click to share on Tumblr (Opens in new window), Click to share on LinkedIn (Opens in new window), Click to email this to a friend (Opens in new window), Click to share on Reddit (Opens in new window), A Gothard Girl testifies about the “root of bitterness” (guest post by Lauren Rose), defile, or even sear, people’s consciences, I’ve talked about that in other blog posts, Why did David lift his eyes to the hills? “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Thessalonians 5:23. God rescues His people from situations in which nothing but God can rescue them. 6. Dec 19, 2004 #12. That’s why, to have the Holy Spirit within us, we must first 1.) Oh goodness, that question of evil has sent me on my face so many times, in tears, and I’ve talked about that in other blog posts. Why/Why Not/What are the Consequences? This is one of those Christian catch phrases that always make me scratch my head. So thankful for the skill you have in comparing Scripture with Scripture, in order that those of us who were taught by men who pulled isolated verses out of context to teach the ideologies of man might instead find hope. We know that eventually he will quarantine evil from good when he creates the New Heaven and Earth (Rev. If God can’t be in the presence of sin, then Jesus was not God–since our world is fraught with sin! But, this is not the whole story. So to say that God can not be in the presence of sin is wrong. Sin hinders everything now, especially man’s experience of God’s presence. One avenue of revelation is through God’s creation (Psalm 19:1-6). When I told her no and she expressed surprise, I had to think for a while about the reason. Since Moses desired to see God’s glory (i.e., to experience God’s presence firsthand), the Lord granted Moses’ request by making a necessary accommodation: In the beginning of human history, God enjoyed a close presence with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:8). If he is present everywhere then he cannot but be in the presence of sinful creatures. After all, the majority of the world still embraced their sin rather than Jesus. This is the first time I hear of such nonsense. In other words, there is no place where God is not. 12:10). What we read and find happening there is a conversation between satan ( the epitome of sin,evil etc..) and God over His protection of His servant Job. Yes, God can be in the presence of sin. And He's loving and merciful, so He desires that all people know Him and His saving grace. But when I’m helping someone process her memories, the purpose of her telling horrors is not to violate me or manipulate me, but to get help. 6/4/12: Can God be in the Presence of Sin. Yes, He is pure, but this purity doesn’t mean He can’t touch evil or be near it. The Bible teaches that God is opposed to sin and evil, that he is holy and righteous. The purpose is different. Sin is no less possible for you now than it was before. Adam and eve Adam and eve disobey god hiding footprints Gardens Suffering, Emotional Aspects Of Hiding From God God, Presence Of God, Human Descriptions Of Unity, God's Goal Of Adam, Sin Of God Walking Walking Garden Of Eden, The The Cool Of The Day Guilty Fear Quietness Hearing God's Voice Concealment, Of Sin God cannot be seen (as Pastor Armstrong explained) because God’s holiness and perfect judgment requires that He must condemn sin if it enters His presence (i.e., sees His “face”). Newer Than: Search this thread only; Search this forum only. Why can't sin be in the presence of God when the father of lies, the sinner of all sins, is allowed to have a conversation with God & the Angels in Heaven? Many argue that hell is a place of separation from God (Matthew 25:41) and … Read this carefully: God neither instigates sin nor leads anyone into temptation. Can sinful man touch God? For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. In the New Testament God is also called Savior (Lk. Just as the omniscience of God suffers apparent paradoxes due to the limitations of the human mind, so does the omnipresence of God. Here’s the Joy participates in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. He couldn’t have taken all our sins upon Himself on the cross. Rebecca, thanks for debunking, with Scripture, another often stated “fact” that has been used to verbally assault victims and keep them in a hopeless state. If he cannot, then how is he an omnipresent being? Thanks . The point of pastors saying that God cannot be in the presence of sin or God cannot countenance sin is that he cannot simply be dismissive of sin. He is just, so He demands payment for wrongs. God’s holiness will eventually consume all sin. God will remove all of the desire of sin from us, desire that we have put to death through the Holy Spirit, and give us a body that is militantly righteous, a body that will clothe our resurrected flesh and bones. We know that’s not true. The Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit can be “quenched” as well as … 21). Before continuing, we need to be clear about a couple of terms. The Ultimate Lie. God still upholds and sustains all His creation (Hebrews 1:3). When those whose hearts are set against Him engage in sinful acts, His presence is not with them in any positive sense. And you can take heart that the presence of these ungodly, sinful acts won’t be any sort of deterrent to Him. Does this put God in a bind? And why is it in Judaism Satan's not considered evil? He couldn’t have been there when the Jews were making His Father’s house into a den of thieves. At that time, God will physically separate those who love him from those who don’t. Don’t bother Him with your problem!’ Let me see if I can shed some light on this subject. Why/Why Not/What are the Consequences? It is not deliverance from the PRESENCE of sin. A friend who is a survivor of lifelong horrific abuse asked me once if I felt dirty or violated or tainted listening to her story (told in agonizing bits and pieces over the course of months). In addition, the prophet Isaiah, himself a sinful man, was in the presence of God, as recorded in Isaiah 6. 'God' created everything including Satan and 'sin'. If you choose to purchase books through these links, thank you! https://www.bible.com/114/rom.15.4.nkjv, Yes, it’s so important to keep the verses in their context, and to understand accurate principles of interpretation. Comments. God cannot look upon sin, God cannot allow sin into His presence, God must turn away from looking at sin and similar cliché's. Thank goodness, because if God truly could not be in the presence of sin, none of us would be here! 2:3, 4:10; Titus 2:10; 3:4; Jude 25). Because God is omnipresent, we are always in his presence. The Bible teaches just as darkness cannot exist in the presence of light, sin cannot exist in the presence of a holy God. In prayer ministry work with abuse survivors, it’s common to ask Jesus to show up in the memory of the abuse. Hence all the confrontations on earth, and ultimately the crucifixion, the death blow. Would love your thoughts, please comment. He couldn’t have taken all our sins upon Himself on the cross. Indeed, each of us prove this everyday. Stand to Reason Blog; Is this biblical ? If sin can not exist in the presence of God, How could Satan (in the book of Job) walk multiple times into the councils of heaven? John says: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Holmes. ). With some movies and TV shows it has seemed to me that one of the “background” purposes has been to defile, or even sear, people’s consciences when it comes to immorality, even rape and incest, and other forms of wickedness. This is proven by God’s omnipresence (as you noted), the incarnation of God the Son, and even God’s continued (if temporary) interaction with some of the fallen angels (including Satan – e.g. ABSOLUTELY NOT ! But I’ve never considered it a block to his presence in the face of evil or as a bludgeon for anyone. CAN he? Satan wars against you going into the presence of God because he knows the very things you need to empower you in moments of weakness are actually in that place. A new perspective on an old question, Here’s Why “Gratitude Motivation” Isn’t Biblical—and What’s Better, “Your empathy is a sin” – a response to Desiring God, Hope for the Weary at Advent (guest post by Teri Zalk), The secret to living a life that pleases God, Your Pastor Isn’t Moses: a Response to John Bevere’s “Under Cover”. “God can’t be in the presence of sin,” more than one friend has said to me, “so there’s no way Jesus could be there where that awful stuff is happening.”, I think this belief came from some teaching about the death of Jesus on the cross. If God cannot sin, is He truly omnipotent?" Can God the father have sin in his presence NO. That gives me a tiny glimpse of the way God views sin. If our God could never be in the presence of sin, that means Jesus couldn’t have been there when the Jews were committing Him to crucifixion. After their sin, they became separated from this presence. He wants to touch the “tainted” hearts, heal the brokenness, and clean away the shame. 12volt_man Well-Known Member. I see it as a heartbreaking object lesson that shows how far God & Jesus are willing to go to save us.. I’m Rebecca Davis, a writer, editor, speaker, wife, mother, grandmother, friend, advocate for the oppressed, and lover of Jesus who lives in Greenville, South Carolina. When those whose hearts are set against Him engage in sinful acts, His presence is not, Why doesn’t He stop the abuse when it’s happening? with love and respect, andy153 Oct 14, 2004. Seek the Holy Spirit For Strength. The story of Scripture begins and ends with the presence of God. He is there for those who trust Him, even in the dark tunnels and darker valleys, even where heinous sins have been committed. When Jesus died on the cross, He took upon Himself all the sin of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 2:2). Let’s just – can’t we just all get along?” No, that’s not God’s approach. Thank y'all very much. Answer: To answer this question, we must first consider who God is. When you get to heaven, you will be saved from the presence of sin. Can sinful man be in the presence of God? It is not deliverance from the PRESENCE of sin. The presence of God they once knew freely is no longer free. (The people who make the movie want to manipulate their audience, of course, and in some cases actually want to defile and violate them.). Dr. Michael Gleghorn is both a research associate with Probe Ministries and an instructor in Christian Worldview at Grand Canyon University in Phoenix, Arizona.. But because of sin, we cannot enter His presence (Habakkuk 1:13). Untwisting Scriptures and offering the Living Water, to help others (especially those who have been abused) experience the joy to be found in Jesus Christ. On behalf of atheists everywhere I'd like to publicly thank the fundies for creating such comedy for us to larff at. There are also several instances in the Bible where Satan and other demons are said to be in God’s presence (e.g., Job 1:6; 2 Chron. Can god be in the presence of sin? To be sure, God ordained in the Old Testament that his “presence” be directly associated with the tabernacle in the wilderness or the temple in Jerusalem so that people could speak of entering into God’s presence in the sense that they came near to the place where he had appointed his name especially to dwell or to be identified with. Throughout the Old Testament period, we find various ways in which God revealed His presence in special ways. God avoid standing fully revealed in our presence to protect us from that danger not to protect Himself who cannot be harmed. Obviously, if God cannot look upon sin or evil then God should not have been able to look upon satan, or even allow satan to enter His presence. In the beginning of human history, God enjoyed a close presence with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:8). Did the curtain split because God could now be in the presence of evil and sin? Sin has divided us from the gracious and loving presence of God, but not from His essential presence (Ephesians 2:14). Tweets by @STRtweets. I’ve often cried for Jesus’ pitiful lonilness when God forsook him on the cross. Sin results in the withdrawal of the Holy Ghost. @ osullivanbr: God cannot be in the presence of sin; He even had to look away from his one and only Son while He hung on the cross bearing the sins of the world—our sins. God has a reputation for not being able to be around sin or sinners. If He had to protect Himself from being “tainted” by someone else’s sin or contamination, that means He couldn’t have touched the lepers to heal them. He is there to uphold you, to be with you, and to heal you. Job 1-2, etc.). 2.) Sin is no less possible for you now than it was before. To hold the belief that God cannot be in the presence of sin, one would have to first deny trinitarian theology and the divinity of Jesus– there’s no legitimate way around that. After their sin, they became separated from this presence. So, where does he go and what does he do when we sin? You have free will. The human mind, however, cannot adequately grasp who He is if it were not for the special revelations He has given us. Taken from our blog, Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason answers the question, "If God cannot be in the presence of sin, how could Satan have approached him … So if God can’t be in the presence of sinners, then He cannot have fellowship with believers. It is still in God that all people live and breathe and have their being (Acts 17:28). The question is inherently flawed because it does not view sin in the proper light and and seems to imply that God can somehow not be ever present. How desperate that loss of perfect fellowship with the Father must have been. So why did the Father forsake Him? So if God can’t be in the presence of sinners, then He cannot have fellowship with believers. Matthew 7:21-23 ESV / 67 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Sin is what draws us away from God's presence. Is this biblical ? The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Yet, the Holy Spirit who indwells us is God himself! God is everywhere, ever present. If you are saved, you can sin anytime you want to sin. Why doesn’t He stop the abuse when it’s happening? God's presence is the place of your victory and the devil's defeat! We also know that God is omnipresent, which means he is present everywhere. But according to Job 1, God does both. (You can also click on “My books” above for more information.). A fundie suggesting, "God can't stand in the presence of sin" is about as funny as anything else he says. Will we … — God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. I think this belief came from some teaching about the death of Jesus on the cross. Pastor Jimmy Buehler. Recognizing the truth about God can be an important first step to achieving victory over sin. You have free will. DEVOTIONAL THOUGHT: Some people get confused about when salvation happens. (Suffice to say, that particular thinking was NOT the general teaching within any Charismatic group I was a part of, rather an opinion of some fringe preachers / leaders..), SO thankful that God is large enough to handle any problem . God is the eternal 'I AM', that is to say, He is the only One who truly IS and is ever present. Perhaps that is partially where the idea came from. God is spirit (John 4:24) and does not have a physical presence. The Bible nowhere says that God cannot be around sin or sinners. Indeed, if all have sinned (and continue to do so), God must be able to be in the presence of sin to indwell those who have placed their trust in the redemption of Christ. Search titles only; Posted by Member: Separate names with a comma. He is holy, so He can't be in the presence of sin. That sin separates us from God. What does it mean, then, to be in God's presence? As in … He comes into the places of trauma to bring … Now one of the Pharisees was requesting Him to dine with him, and He entered the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. Click on each image to go to Amazon to read reviews and purchase. In the presence of God sin must either destroyed or else changed so much as to be identical with being destroyed. The Bible clearly teaches that God is morally perfect and holy, that he hates sin. The Self-Abdicating sort, though none in that Ministry of Death (what scripture calls the Old Covenant), none in that hell on earth in which Man finds himself outside of God (hell defined), yet in the presence of God, ever are one-with-God, or, inside of God. With that mind, here are four simple, utterly ordinary, utterly profound ways we can enjoy the presence of God every day. Admit that we are sinners and have done wrong. Can God Be In The Presence of Sin? The Lord Jesus Christ, when He died, took upon Himself all the sins of all those who believe on Him. He also reversed the curse of our old natures, which keeps us enslaved to sinful passions and desires … God cannot look upon sin, God cannot allow sin into His presence, God must turn away from looking at sin and similar cliché's . Man can bang his head all day long against that Closed Door and it shall not open. Post Views: 1. But if there is one who is being victimized, one who cries out to Him, His presence is with her. In the book of Genesis, Eden is the … Satan is the essence of sin, the epitome of sin itself. And then, of course, there’s the ultimate evidence that God is not afraid to be in the presence of sin: Jesus himself. When Jesus was dying, the Scriptures tell us, He cried out (Matthew 27:46): “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”. Ponder that with me for a second and see if it doesn’t cause a shiver of delight to wrap around your spine. Display results as threads Had God lessened His standards through Jesus? The resurrection conquered spiritual and physical death. Through Jesus Christ and His Atonement, each person can repent and be forgiven of sins. But the Bible never indicates that. He can’t just say, “Hey, you know, you’re a sinner, you’re a rebel, no problem, no big deal. Perhaps Satan has sympathy for God? ‘Do not I fill heaven and earth?’ declares the Lord” (Jer. So though I might often feel grief or overwhelm, I don’t feel dirty or tainted. So yes, Jesus can be in the presence of sin. Can sinful man see God? But sometimes a theology question can stop the work before it happens. What?! Because of their disobedience, Adam and Eve are now exiles; their mission is in shambles as they stand outside of Eden. 23:23-24). For Jesus to pay the full price for our sin, he had to experience the lonely, Godless, emptiness of spiriitual death. But it is possible for God to command a sinful being to stand (temporarily) in His presence in order to commission him (Isaiah 6), to exact an account from him (Job 1-2), or to judge him (Revelation 20:11–15) without compromising His holiness. We could say that God (Jesus, specifically) cannot look on sin without dealing with sin. God cannot look WITH FAVOR upon sin and evil, but He can certainly be in the presence of sinners. Post was not sent - check your email addresses! He comes into the places of trauma to bring healing. It is not meant to be a statement about his physical presence. He couldn’t have been there when the Jews were making His Father’s house into a den of thieves. At that time, God will physically separate those who love him from those who don’t. One of these paradoxes is important: the presence of God in hell, that place unto which the wicked are departed and suffer the unlimited and unceasing fury of God because of their sin. Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” Luke 7:36-50. So yes, Jesus can be in the presence of sin. Some people have said that that it had to be because at that point Jesus had taken upon Himself all the sins of the world, and God couldn’t look on sin. In the Genesis study, he taught God (mercifully) made noise in the Garden so Adam and Eve … The stage is set for the first coming of Jesus. When you audibly speak God's inspired Word, you will sense its power and His … Some people have said that that it had to be because at that point Jesus had taken upon Himself all the sins of the world, and. Logged darryl. Has anyone ever read the opening chapter of Job ? If he can, then doesn't that mean he has the actual choice to send people to heaven or hell since he'd be able to dwell with sin? 18:18-21; Rev. When Jesus was dying, the Scriptures tell us, He cried out (Matthew 27:46): So why did the Father forsake Him? Read Scripture Aloud. This is an effective way for Him to speak His love and care to the heart of the one who was harmed and bring healing to the wounds caused by others. After that, you enter a process of sanctification where you are being saved from the power of sin. by . 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Purchase books through these links, thank you Member: separate names with a comma must first 1 )!